The Attack of The Entrenched: Can There Be A Childfree Dialogue?

Preface:
One of my my favorite bloggers Plain(s) Feminist posted an interesting article about the "Childfree" movement. (Here) I found the article and the discussion that followed it into her comment area, fair and open and yours truly even tried to approach a level of articulation worthy of the conversation.

This was in January.

Apparently, the folks over at Childfree-EZ recently got a glance at her post and started responding rudely and (of course) anonymously, while bravely ripping her apart in the safe confines of their 'community' forum. (Here)

When I say safe I mean.. (their words not mine):

Help - FAQ: I'm a parent, but I agree with you. Can I post here?

No. This board is a safehaven for the Childfree where we do not justify ourselves, thoughts, decisions, or actions to any non-CFers. This is a companionship board, not a debate board, and posts questioning the Childfree or extolling the virtues of parenthood will not be tolerated. We've had parents posting here before. We've seen parents post at other childfree-only boards. What we have never seen is a parent who could carry on the sort of conversation we have here without getting offended sooner or later and pulling the "as a parent, I...whatever" out of their arsenal. This board is not the place to discuss regrets, if any, about having children, because this board is not the place to discuss child-rearing issues of individual posters AT ALL. The places on the internet where those conversations are available are legion. The places on the internet where the childfree are free of parents are about 6. Childfree stepparents are welcome to post. Just as the intro says we do not care to hear the virtues of parenthood extolled, neither do we wish to hear the regrets. You are to be commended for announcing yourself as a parent. Many people have tried to be a part of this community and lied about their childed status. Unfortunately, not one single parental poster on this board has ever managed to keep their kids out of their posts. We don't care. We really don't care. Every day in our jobs, in our families, we are inundated with people and their children. We come here to be free of that- childfree, in fact. Parents should not post here. We ask you to respect the intention of the board. Feel free to read.

So, to give you the context, this is my response on Plain(s) Feminist's post and I felt I should post it here too. I have no children, I'm an uncle to one nephew and I do think children can be annoying and parents can be poor at their job. I feel bad for those who feel oppressed by "Pro Family" forces, but I also feel their reaction is poorly planned and much more of a tantrum than a political movement. They are not entirely wrong, I don't think the whole world should be molded for children's eyes either, however they seem more interested in nursing their wounds in the shadows, then actually trying to come up with palatable solutions, that could be instituted by the greater public. If you come here from Childfree-EZ, by all means bring in the noise and the funk. I'll even give you a moment to let your eyes adjust to the bright light of free discussion.
Cheers- The Stuff Daddy

My Response:

Hey, I just wanted to shout hello to all the folks coming by the post from the "Childfree-EZ" forum. It must be a lovely thing to have a like-minded forum in a protected space where you can pursue the joys of argument and conversation, without the tiresome bother of having to have a cogent thesis that can stand up on it's own merit against an opposing view.

I wonder how many other great thinkers got there start in such a warm and friendly environment. I'm sure it cultivates, the humility and self reflection that we all need time to time, to check ourselves and especially our egos against logic and sense.

Bearing that in mind, I have a gift for you all. It's something that I hope you can take back with you to the comfort of your little corner of the net:

You are not in a war against "Pro Child People."

I'm sure there are some people who consider themselves to be vehemently against you, but most of the people who you are painting as your enemy are just not as extreme in their sense of self entitlement as you are. I have all the same experiences that you do. I hear the screaming children whose parents let them run wild through the supermarket, I go to my local bar/restaurant and develop a frown when a family birthday party is taking place. (shouldn't that be happening at a Chuck E. Cheese?)

I think many parents are terrible at their station and should be taken to task for it.

But I don't think I have the right to abstract myself from the annoyances of children any more than I think I have the right to do the same with panhandlers, or slow, elderly people. Whether, young, poor or old, they are facts of life.

I am not your enemy,

but you seem too entrenched in your own protective shells to build links with others and perhaps together, build some kind of social accountability for parents. Look at the name by which you identify yourselves. The "Childfree" movement has probably the worst PR strategy I have ever seen. Just the name, will seem to many people, an attack on children. Why not call yourselves "Kitten Killers?" Doesn't "Parental Responsibility Movement" sound more palatable and more accurate. Like a bunch of rich college activists who spend there time protesting with puppets instead of building ties with the working class, you trade away the most important part of activism, the ability to connect with allies, and you do it for nothing more than hollow, self righteous satisfaction.

To distill my earlier thoughts...It is true that many people who don't have children are unfairly judged by others. People with children do sometimes seem to think the world revolves around them and that is not a fair assessment. However, a 'childfree' life is merely a luxury of modern individualism. You live in a world community and whether or not you actually personally have children, your taxes, voting and other choices will raise generations of them and then, their choices will determine whether or not they drop you on an ice flow. The one freedom you don't have is to change reality.

While I understand the need for people to fight the right wing agenda that tries to ban everything that isn't child friendly and promotes a 'family first' focus, that does not mean we don't need to have an interest in more than our own personal, narrow lifespan. I don't begrudge anyone for wanting or not wanting to have children. I don't think anyone is telling you that you cannot live your life the way you please. However, if every time you see a child, you cringe and start to boil with anger, thinking that some annoying brat might bother your day, you have serious problem with excepting life as it is on this planet. Gathering in support groups isn't going to help.

We are more than just individuals who negotiate our freedom to value ourselves by changing standards or mores. We are billions of people, in towns, states, countries, a large social animal, which takes little thought to its purpose or progress on the planet it uses. I find the idea of wanting to abstract yourself from children entirely to be less than a valiant expression of individual freedom. It is the height of Western, white collar, sociopathic decadence.

When it comes down to it, I'm sure it's unnerving, when you feel secure in your self created image and individually secure life and then, all of a sudden, a child comes up to you and they don't see your impeccable business dress or other accoutrements. They don't care about what you do for a job unless you're a fireman or a superhero. They don't read your blog or care about how nicely you designed you condo. It's an "Emperor's New Clothes" moment and there you are, just another grownup person who thinks they are very important, but isn't. Don't you remember, it's exactly how you felt when you were that age.

- The Stuff Daddy


Updated!

I thought I'd respond to some of my new pals at Childfree-EZ who seem to have trouble using my comment link for this blog. Please guys, feel free to post here.

misopedist says- What's up with this asshole (links to this post)

SD -Hey misopedist , thanks for linking! I'm up with intelligent and unconventional discussion where people try to respect each other while allowing candid and hopefully productive breakthroughs and bridges between viewpoints, how about you?

Aurons Girl says- Hello, my name is StuffDaddy, and I enjoy fapping to the sound of my keyboard. Honestly, dude, say what you have to say without the pretentious bullshit and get on with it.

SD -Hey Aurons Girl, great imitation! Sorry about the pretentious bullshit, but it seems to be the only way to counterpoint venomous vulgarity from within a "protective" forum. My keyboard is more "clicky" then "fappy" but I do enjoy it! Thanks again.

tielmom67 says- He is a bit full of his 'superiority' isn't he?
As for wanting to stir shit with him over there, why bother?
He'll either snidely delete anything we say or cut dissenting opinions down to the applause of his fellow like-minds.
'No Win [or even Truce]' scenario with a person like him.

SD -Hey tielmom67, no fair! I don't think I'm superior to anyone. I just don't think you are either. Honestly if anyone really wants to talk about this issue, it's fine with me and to be completely serious and honest with you, if you can't find a common space with me, someone who shares a great deal of empathy for your ideology, then good luck finding any peace in this world except in tiny protective forums and caves. You guys really are fighting with people who aren't your enemies. In fact we probably share some of the same enemies, but "Childfree" needs a PR agent like Mike Tyson needs a sedative. Either hide in your safe haven or step up to the plate with some intelligent discussion. Cheers! -The Stuff Daddy

PS- If you guys decide not to converse but to just chat about me on your site, here are some fun facts to help you make fun of me.

-My other blog is a comic book movie site! (What a geek! He never grew up! What a loser!)
-I wrote a silly song about Dan Rather. (People like this guy think they're witty, but they're just boring!)
-I linked to many cartoons that I've done. (My kid could do better!! oh sorry, that's inappropriate, isn't it?)
-Also, good for me, he's crazy, arrogant, long winded, and I like Grover from Sesame Street!
Go to it folks!

Last Update?

Sorry, I've been out playing music with two buds. All three of us are "non-breeders" and we all discussed in amazement, the entrenchment of some people who call themselves "CF" (not all, I am specifically talking to this specific forum mentioned above, for all I know the rest of the "CF" world are a bunch of mellow, friendly types). The major issue that amazed my friends was the idea that someone could just demand a world where they never had to face children in any way. Now, I can understand if it was "loud children" or "wild children" although good luck on separating yourself without going into public exile, but I think it's the "all children" thing that unnerves some of us and, well, makes us think....well.....that you cats are just crazy. I'm not saying you are, but I will explain my use of the word sociopath below.

Some of the folks over at Childfree-EZ are pretty much saying "leave us alone in our own space."

I guess it's a comfortable way to vent. The great hostility they have towards the world in general and parents and children specifically, may come from more horrid experiences than I have ever had. Women especially, must feel society pressuring them to have children, and that's obviously wrong. Of course Plain(s) Feminist has said all the same things. All the people I've talked to about this support a person's right to not have a child and to live their lives as they please. That hasn't stopped folks from lashing out and name calling. I guess it's a reaction to the pain they feel, since it certainly is not pound for pound in equality with the thoughts professed by those they have spoken ill of.

madchen says- that StuffDaddy guy is nuts - people who hate kids are sociopaths? Methinks we should buy that idiot a dictionary. Wow.

SD - madchen, your wish is my command. (definition found at www.Dictionary.com)

American Heritage New Dictionary of Cultural Literacy, Third Edition
sociopath [(soh-see-uh-path, soh-shee-uh-path)]

Someone whose social behavior is extremely abnormal. Sociopaths are interested only in their personal needs and desires, without concern for the effects of their behavior on others.

This could also explain that, while your forum is protected from unwanted attacks, you begrudge others from doing the same in response to you. Of course here, you are free to say what you will... I know you don't believe me, but you never know till you try..

Taz in CH says- Methinks that StuffDaddy has got way too much time on his hands to write all this stuff. First, defending some delusional :moocow 's non-argument that the sun shines out of the ass of her newborn and that everybody else should just suck it up, when the loaf acts out in public, and then being all upset about EZCF rules, excluding him from our community.

WTH, he is not CF, so he can't be part of the community. Baaawaaaah! That's unfaaaaaiiiiir.

SD - Hey, Taz in CH. How you doing? Let's breakdown your argument a bit, shall we?

First, can somebody define CF for me? I not a parent! Aren't I "Free of Child?" Or, is it about agreeing with everthing you say? I am confused about this...

Lazy Intellect Internet Response Number 533:
"has got way too much time on his hands "
This commonly used phrase attacks an author by cleverly poking holes in his theory or thesis without actually discussing it's content, but instead, with a retort comparable to "Oh yeah!! Well, if you have the time to write down a cogent thought, then you must not have a life!" The common but incorrect response to this is for the attacked to then go into an explanation of how much of a life he/she has ie (I drink a lot/I have sex with multiple partners/I have a expensive car/I'm rich/I'm a movie star etc.) The first correct response is to admit defeat at the feet of the clever response. As we all know, intellect means nothing if you have time on the weekend to respond to a forum. The second correct response is to say "I type fast."

I also question how much you read the "moocow" in questions post and comments below the post, my reading of it finds it very sympathetic to your cause. By the way, your calling her a "moocow," utter brilliance mate! Did you come up with that yourself? I bet that really put her in her place and made you feel a bit better about the long sentences she wrote, didn't it? I bet she doesn't have a life either.. It' sad that some people have to write big long responses when you can eloquently sum it up in just a few words like "moocow."

(Note: notice below how FichtnerFan first establishes him/herself as having a full life as a muralist [perhaps a store owner too?] before responding... That's a nice touch.)

FichtnerFan says- Things are slow today and I'm working on a couple of murals on the hallway of the store. In between doing stuff, I've been looking at the article (or whatever it is) written by "Asshole" at the above link

I think the thing that bugs me most about this guy (and the woman who wrote the article that is the subject of the original post in this thread) is his attitude that breeders should be able to make us all miserable every-fucking-where - including here at this happy little place in cyberspace we call The Safe Haven. It's called that for a reason - because we don't want to have to put up with their shit here. The number one thing that bothers me about breederdom - except maybe the forced taxation to pay for "the future," which isn't looking too bright - is that they insist on spreading their misery literally everywhere. That is just about the ultimate in entitlemindedness (except, of course, their demanding and forcing us all to pay to educate, feed, transport and essentially wipe the asses of their horrible progeny).

You know, it really isn't a "movement" - I can't figure out where they're getting that. Am I wrong, but even No Kidding, which is about as organized as it gets, isn't political, is it? It's just a social club for people who don't want to have to hear about other people's brats non-stop. Imagine that!?

I'd just like breeders to demonstrate basic human decency and, if they can't do that, stay the hell away from me.

SD -FichtnerFan, other than the enjoyment I got from your use of the word "breederdome" (which I will treasure forever) and the puzzlement from your existentialist belief to live in the "now" and for yourself completely, which reminds me of the "White Man's Rights" movement in it's tunnel vision of self entitlement, I really can't blame most of your logic.

I only came over here (your forum) because of the venom I saw towards the other blog and I must admit, the entrenchment of small ideological groups fascinate me because the very thing that sometimes creates support provides a gap between martyrdom and political action.

You do have a right to have your "Safe Haven." (I also, of course, have a right to have a blog, which does not make rules or demands) I also applaud your plea for "basic human decency" and I think to demand that, you must learn to practice it, by casting away the name calling and allowing yourself to have calm discussion.

To be honest, this is only a post to me. Tomorrow I will write about something else. You folks obviously have a lot of pain to deal with and I don't want to keep you from getting the support you may need from a like-minded forum. I hope you find peace in your lives and find a way to do what you want without provoking the ire of the heavy handed society. But I also leave myself free to respond when the bouncing ping of the Internet tells me that my name mentioned.

Cheers!-The Stuff Daddy